"The" Gays

(I am adding to this because I feel like this post has become an important and civil conversation with one of the smartest women I know. Melissa, I hope you don't mind.)

This is one I seriously debated blogging about. My history with Mormonism makes my current relationship with the church and its members a tenuous one. I have been very reluctant to directly discuss my personal reasons for leaving the church, because (as I have mentioned in the past) I do not want anyone to feel like I think my reasons should be anyone else's reasons. I hope that make sense.

However, recent events make me feel the need to express my opinion - not based solely on a church matter but instead a civil rights matter. I no longer watch General Conference, but during the last few years I have read talks that have been forwarded to me by friends and family members. For the most part I have still enjoyed them as much as I did when I was a member of the church. They generally carry an uplifting message directed toward the family or goodwill to mankind - topics I can ALWAYS get behind as long as nobody is trying to exclusively claim them.

But, Elder Packer's comments about homosexuality really upset me. While I was still part of the church, I had the opportunity to become friends with several guys my age who were struggling with their conflicting identities of gay and Mormon. One of them even told me about his suicide attempt after being kicked out of the house when he "came out" to his Mormon parents.

He had grown to HATE the part of him that was gay and I could tell from his story that he wanted nothing else but to "overcome" his "tendencies." He had even considered self mutilation and chemical castration.

It was something that I couldn't relate to but at the same time seemed to understand perfectly. I knew what it was like to be ashamed of my own sexual inclinations. Even though my attraction was of the hetero- variety, I still felt like it was something I always had to battle against. I knew what it was like to hate my own urges because they have no place in an unmarried Mormon's life.

When I heard the introductory lines to this segment of Elder Packer's talk, my heart sank. There is already so much implication to the words "There are those who would tolerate..."

In my opinion, it just goes downhill from there. How horribly disheartening it must be for struggling Mormon youth to hear this from one of their highest earthly leaders. Imagine the guilt, shame and fear you would feel to be told by "on high" that this part of you, a part that feels so natural and ingrained, is inherently evil. You can understand why gays and the family and friends of gays (both Mormon and non-Mormon alike) have been so concerned by these comments.

While Elder Packer made it clear in his talk that the church will not change, I was reminded of comments by Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses that had very similar implications for African Americans.

Also note that for the first time in nearly 40 years, changes have been made to the conference talk after it was delivered. (Side note; after some research I found that the "book" in reference was None Dare Call It Conspiracy by Gary Allen.)

While it has significant scientific backing, I will still consider it my "opinion" that some people are born gay. With that in mind, I wrote the following letter to the Utah Pride Center:

"To tell you a little about myself, I am straight, happily married, and
ex-mormon for about two years now. I have tried several times to get
my family out of Utah into an area that is more accepting and open
minded, but family ties and close friends keep bringing us back.

When I was mormon, I was devout and even a solid missionary. I worked
hard to serve the people of Mexico in my own way (mostly by helping
them dig ditches and harvest crops, rather than try to "change" them
religiously) but I suppose you could say that I was still a
"successful" missionary - as the church would call it.

I do not regret leaving the church. In fact, it was probably one of the best
decisions I have ever made. My wife and I are in a much better place
and I feel like my children will have the opportunity to grow up in an
environment of love, acceptance and open-mindedness.

My one regret is that I haven't made more of an effort to diversify my
group of friends. It's not that I feel like I should seek out or treat
differently those of different races or sexual orientations, but when
I look around my group of friends I am struck by the same frustrating
realization as when I look at the majority of Utah: we are almost all
white and straight. In some ways I think it would be wrong to seek out
friends based on their darker skin tone or gayness, like some twisted
sort of diversity hire. At the same time, though, I feel like those of
us who love and accept you should be going out of our way to include
you when so many in this state are working hard to exclude you.

I just want you in the LGBT community to know that there is a quiet
portion of the community like us who genuinely love and support you
for who you are, and even though we may have been raised with a
backwards mentality, we know now that you have been wronged in the
deepest sense of the word. We want desperately to know you and become
friends with you, but just like seeking out black friends would almost
be a form of racism, we know there is something a little off about
trying to make gay friends. That may sound odd but in a way we feel
like the greatest form of service we can provide you with is by not
treating you differently, but by instead being kind to everyone -
regardless of race, creed or sexual orientation. Perhaps I am just
rambling and still backwards (if so please tell me and help me move
forward) but I want you to know that we are here and we support you.

For those of you who are still Mormon; I want you to know there is
still hope. Please don't let recent comments bring you down. After
all, Brigham Young said similar things about African Americans 151
years ago. So, don't be disheartened by Packer's comments. With that in
mind I offer to you my new bumper sticker idea:

"Gay: The new Black of the Mormon church."

Just remember, it is only a matter of time! ;-)"

(Melissa's comment still hasn't shown up, so I am including it in the post itself, because I think it is a wonderful perspective of the other side of this conversation.)

Please, please, please tell me you've actually watched or read the
actual talk, in it's entirety.

It concerns me, the divisiveness created by those (not you, not your
honest and concerned post) who haven't actually listened to the man.

He did NOT say that gays are NOT born that way.

He did NOT say that a person can just "change" their sexual preference,
or even elude to it.

He did NOT suggest that the "tendencies" and "temptations" themselves
are sins. It is the acts that are sins. The LDS website has / had
posted there it's official stance on the matter and stated this very
clearly. Tendencies are not the problem, not the sin, nor will they
keep you from serving within the church, nor will they keep you from
the blessings of heaven. We all must face and overcome the natural man.

When Packer said in his talk that such tendencies can be "overcome" he
did not exclusively elude to homosexuality, but included and stated,
ALL immoral, impure acts and human tendencies(according to LDS
doctrine). Which includes the example you gave of being a heterosexual,
but expected to be celibate until you are married -- and celibacy even
if you never marry (is that our nature, to be celibate? Or even
monogomous? I married at 19 and that was hard enough).

Still, his message stated that the God's laws won't change (which you
disagree with, ok) but that we can all, ALL OF US, take comfort in
knowing that we can overcome those temptations that contradict
progression and the laws of the gospel. He said that we are all capable
of obeying the commandments, we can do it. That we are not given more
tempation than we can bear - that's the promise and message of the talk
(I think).

I have not brought up this topic with anyone else and I only bring it
up with you because;

You are so willing to be open and try really hard not to be combative
and I trust that you know I'm not trying to fight either, even if I
disagree with some things.

I'm not even trying to change your mind or "fix" your opinion, either.
Especially since you come from a place of compassion and concern. I
just thought maybe I would straighten up some of the accusations and
misquotes I keep hearing about (it's bugging me).

I guess I feel defensive, because I do have a testimony of the gospel
and I also believe that Jesus is the ultimate example. It makes me so
sad to think that your friend was kicked out when opening up to his
parents. That's so not what Jesus would do. It's contrary to the
teachings of the gospel as I have come to understand it in my searching
and studying.

I think that is one area that is improving in this LDS culture and I
pray and hope, hope, hope that it's members will really embrace
wholeheartedly the Savior's example. He never, ever condoned sin, but
He also never, EVER turns anyone away when they need Him. Ever. Always
it was and is Love.

I do have a few gay friends/relatives, some mormon, some not. I live in
an area that's pretty diverse for Utah (many, many languages spoken
just on my street, like 7 or so) - That doesn't mean anything other
than I agree with you, about the benefits of living in a diverse place.
Different cultures and lifestyles are not so scary when you serve and
love others, especially those different from you. I think some people
don't want to wrestle with it. But it's so worth it when we are talking
about God's children on earth.

That's all, I've rambled enough for a lifetime.


Love You. And I'm not just saying that so you won't hate me after this
LOOOOOOOOONG and preachy comment.

(I am adding the following, not because I want to have the last word but because I want this conversation to continue.)

Melissa,

Thank you so much for the comment. I got the email but then it didn't appear on here, so I hope you didn't delete it.

First of all, I did not find anything you said to be "preachy" in any way. I loved everything you wrote which is why I really hope it stays on the blog. I appreciate it and in some ways I think you did call me out, which is always necessary.

Yes, I did watch the whole talk because it is important for me to understand the context of quotes. I realize that there are plenty of things that I wrote here that could be taken as very "snarky" or jabbing comments. For those I apologize.

I really love your conviction and I know I've told you before how much I admire it. I do understand the church's stance on the family and in many ways agree with it. I do not blame the church as a whole for the actions of those very un-Christlike parents.

I understand that, in full context, Elder Packer's comments can be applied to all who are striving to overcome temptation. While he did not say that they are not born that way, he did say, "We teach a standard of moral conduct that will protect us from Satan’s many substitutes or counterfeits for marriage. We must understand that any persuasion to enter into any relationship that is not in harmony with the principles of the gospel must be wrong. From the Book of Mormon we learn that “wickedness never was happiness.”

Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn temptations toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Remember, God is our Heavenly Father."

To immediately follow a clear statement regarding relationships that are not harmonious with the gospel (married man and woman) and then clearly state that these individuals cannot "suppose that they were preset" is what is concerning me and so many others.

(Talk in full context here)

I suppose that is where we must disagree. I have met people (the aforementioned friend included) who wanted nothing more than to be "normal" and wish that they had never been subject to their "queer" (and by that I do mean odd - pun intended) feelings.

What stands out so strongly to me is the abuse and bullying that many of these individuals experience from a very young age. For many of them, despite their efforts to be what their parents or those around them want them to be, they can't escape something inside them.

I do believe there are those who perhaps have a "wide" range of sexual attractions and maybe "choose" to focus on their same-sex rather than opposite-sex attractions. But, I really do think that the majority can recognize their "tendency" (not "temptation") from a very young age.

Elder Packer asks "Why would Heavenly Father do that to anyone?" and I think that is a great question… from both sides of Theism.

Why would anyone who wants nothing more than to be ridded of their homosexual tendencies make the "choice" to be outcast and ridiculed by nearly everyone they love if they really had the option? If being gay was once and for all determined to be a chemical or mental dysfunction rather than a genetic marker (which hasn't happened as far as I know, despite some past hype about a "gay gene"), and scientists finally discovered a miracle pill that would “set the gays straight”, how many of them do you think would be lined up with credit cards in hand, ready to pay any price?

How many black Mormons would have done the same before 1978 if they were told that by making a certain church contribution they would finally have their “mark of Cain” removed as they had been promised if it meant they could partake in the acceptance and blessings of their gospel?

How many "reformed homosexuals" really exist? Wouldn't it be more likely that there are simply some who have done a better job of suppressing a part of themselves and commit to a life of lies and misery because of the overwhelming pressure of their church/family/society?

I have never had to suffer through something that I imagine to be that heart wrenching but to a certain degree I know what it is like to try to be two people. It is hell and I would never wish that on anyone.

Like I wrote before, I know it can only be considered my "opinion" (despite the studies that have been presented), that people are born gay.

Isn't it unfortunate that there are people living today who aren't victimizing anybody but still want desperately to be something other than what they are? Sure, there are those at this point who I've seen try to argue that a pedophile or rapist don't feel like they can change their sexual urges either. I don't feel like this even merits argument because there is a world of difference between two consenting and loving males or females who want to live a committed relationship and someone who takes a woman or child by force? Doesn't that boil down to an issue of power and control rather than sex?

But back to the talk... when so many young people are committing suicide, being bullied, or even being murdered because they cannot change or refuse to reject who they are, it must be devastating to be told by such a prominent church leader that they simply must overcome their temptation. Granted, Elder Packer's approach is 1,000 times better than the truly hateful christian extremists who spit and scream and hoist their "God Hates Fags" signs.

I think everyone is tested in their lives, if not by God than simply by life itself. My concern is for individuals who are already in such a deep personal agony because they feel that there is something "evil" or "wrong" with them, to be told that the reason they haven't been able to change is essentially their fault. I know Elder Packer never says that, but his talk does imply that if they simply work harder and pray more diligently, they will be fixed. And that is what I have the hardest time with.

It was probably unfair for me to make the comparison between the gay Mormons of today and the black Mormons of 1977 and earlier. There is no need for us to get into or debate whether or not certain church revelations have coincidentally followed political pressures.

In fact, it may have been a very insensitive joke and maybe I am still missing the whole point. Maybe I’m just venting my overall frustration toward anyone who tries to make the consenting-adult-behind-closed-doors activities of other people their business. Maybe I am just that much more entwined in Satan’s grasp. But, I can get behind Packer’s BOM quote that “wickedness never was happiness” because I’d imagine it goes both ways. I don't feel like true happiness can be wicked. And, the happiest I’ve ever been was the moment I decided that I am still worthwhile, even with all of my faults and imperfections. That was the moment that I decided that it was okay for me take charge of my own life and responsibility for my own progression. It may be very “wrong” of me to feel like I get to pick and choose the areas of my life I want to improve and the pace with which I want to improve them, but I feel like it is healthy. And, I feel like if a lot of confused youth and teenagers were given that kind of go-ahead we’d find a lot fewer of them hanging in their closets. We’d see far fewer marriages and families shattered 10 -15 years in because someone decides they have lived the lie as long as they could.

Who knows though – my blog my opinion, right? I look forward to responses, especially if they can be as constructive and educational as Melissa's. Thanks again, Melissa.